Curse

Thanas · Jul 28, 2005, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Well you're right, it's the biggest nerfing thread around. And I'm also happy to say it's got many more /signed posts than "I disagree" posts.

And Thanas, you've never really...explained any of your statements, it's just "no that won't work" or "No that's incorrect" or "No actually this is what is supposed to happen", but...your word isn't final, it's all just opinions of yours, why you seem to think everything you say is fact is...beyond me. Also, Gaile's post in this thread goes against some of what you said. She said they've nothing against an honest farmer, which means they AREN'T trying to "get rid of farming" because as she's implied by that statement, farming in itself...doesn't hurt people, because ANYONE can do it. The way things are now, not anyone can do it, it's just a portion of the community that can make money by either running people or selling off sigils or something of the sort. Also explain to me what the problem is if they were to bring drops back up (thus allowing everyone the ability to farm and collect gold at a decent rate) while still adding more gold sinks? Makes perfect sense to me, back when I'd farm every day working towards some 60k armor or something I'd have a decent amount of money for a while, then I'd spend it in one of the many gold sinks available and lose the majority of it, in which case I'd just raise the money again over time. I was able to help out guild mates if they ever needed money, I could help out with weapons, I could actually trade weapons with other players, and it wasn't so important to have a mighty awesome weapon because many people were able to get them, and even with that you still had your 15k/fissure armors to get, along with more rare/different looking weapons like storm bows to go get, it was goin' pretty good for just about everyone, I didn't hear near the amount of people in my guild asking for money or materials or a decent weapon, because people were able to get such things just by playing the game, and they could farm if they wanted more. It worked out just fine with the amount of gold sinks we had.

There was some inflation at first, with runes, but the rune trader put a stop to that, and in fact if drops were higher prices would decrease as a whole because things wouldn't be as rare. (Or at least, it would be like they decreased because more people could afford them.)

Thanas, obviously, and Gaile said it herself, they're going through OTHER measures to try and stop botters, and they've told us they have nothing against farmers. And since the devs don't have anything against farmers, they're just trying to take care of bots, I'm going to have to say I trust the devs statements to be fact... a little more than yours. Gaile said to wait and see future updates and see if it improves the situation like they're going about things a better way, and that's what I'm going to do.

I'd provide further...counter-points to your statements, Thanas...but there wasn't really a point made in any of your statements, so there's nothing to disprove really.

First things first. You never read my posts properly. Because if you did you'd see that most of my posts link back to those original interviews. In those interviews you will find, as you said statements which more or less say farming isnt bad, but excessive farming is. I have pointed this out repeatedly. If you don't believe me read my posts. I always state that it is excessive farming that is bad, not farming within reason. So no a fair portion of my statements are grounded in fact. However I am glad you have seen the light and finally understood what I've been trying to push all along, whether I pushed you that way or not, the fact that the Devs will be looking into the problem. Although I persoanlly dislike farming, this will be better than no farming where people aren't happy. However I will re-itterate excessive farming is bad and it is this which has ruined the economy (please read other posts as to why this is the case and yes this can be linked back to Anet statements) alienating casual players who are also a portion of the guild wars community.

Frost_ · Jul 28, 2005, 08:56 AM // 08:56

/signed

anet ruined frost

Angryhob0z · Jul 28, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Yes they do care. I have had PMs off others saying they agree with me. Also I'll think you'll find this forum is a free for all. And yes I do contridict you. Mainly because I think your wrong, this is how debate works! Oh and if someone were to stop me in the street with a petition, I could say whatever I wanted. If someone pushes their PoV, it is inevitable that other people won't agree. These against comments should be absorbed.

yes you are right, but your argument has no validation here because this is not a debate, this is a petition. if it were not a petition then i wouldnt give a rats ass whether you posted or not, basically im just tired of reading these stupid posts saying farmers are stupid, farmers ruin the economy, i disagree, etc... technically everysingle person posting i dont agree in however many differnt words, combination of the words i used, could get into trouble with the mods/admins because they are all posting off topic. now if you will excuse me i have to go find some threads that i believe were deleted, including a thread stating i thinhk threads are being deleted hows that for irony lmao!

eternal_drake · Jul 28, 2005, 09:13 AM // 09:13

/signed

Agreed. I just hope they dont whip out the nerf bat on the Solo smite runs which I undoubtedly know they will, to "fix" the economy.

Thanas · Jul 28, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angryhob0z

yes you are right, but your argument has no validation here because this is not a debate, this is a petition. if it were not a petition then i wouldnt give a rats ass whether you posted or not, basically im just tired of reading these stupid posts saying farmers are stupid, farmers ruin the economy, i disagree, etc... technically everysingle person posting i dont agree in however many differnt words, combination of the words i used, could get into trouble with the mods/admins because they are all posting off topic. now if you will excuse me i have to go find some threads that i believe were deleted, including a thread stating i thinhk threads are being deleted hows that for irony lmao!

I understand what your saying. But if I started a thread about anti-excessive farming it would be ignored. Mainly because of threads like this one swamping any others. Thats why I use this thread. Also I never said farming within reason was wrong (never said I liked it though). It is farming to excess which I fundamentally disagree with. Good luck finding your thread!

PieXags · Jul 28, 2005, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

First things first. You never read my posts properly. Because if you did you'd see that most of my posts link back to those original interviews. In those interviews you will find, as you said statements which more or less say farming isnt bad, but excessive farming is. I have pointed this out repeatedly. If you don't believe me read my posts. I always state that it is excessive farming that is bad, not farming within reason. So no a fair portion of my statements are grounded in fact. However I am glad you have seen the light and finally understood what I've been trying to push all along, whether I pushed you that way or not, the fact that the Devs will be looking into the problem. Although I persoanlly dislike farming, this will be better than no farming where people aren't happy. However I will re-itterate excessive farming is bad and it is this which has ruined the economy (please read other posts as to why this is the case and yes this can be linked back to Anet statements) alienating casual players who are also a portion of the guild wars community.

Meh, this is a good enough response for me. At least good enough so that I won't argue with every bit of it, we're past that by this point. The only point I disagree on is that excessive farming isn't bad in itself, what's bad is what some people do with the money they make from excessive farming. Not everyone, and not the excessive farming in itself, what makes it bad is when inconsiderate people use the money in ways that inflate prices all to hell (like buying out all of one color dye at the trader) or something like that, it's always what people do with the money they get that's bad, not the making of the money period. I know what you meant though, but right now it's the same with droknar runners and such. Hell 3k per person, full party from beacon's to droknars that's 15k in 15 minutes, you do that a few times each day you'll be rich as hell in no time, I know several runners who've become filthy stinkin' rich from running people to droknar's forge, that's just as bad as excessive farming in your sense, except this is more limited to class which means and even smaller portion of the player base can even run people to droknars, making the gap between the rich and the poor even bigger, at least with farming more people have a chance to make money. Point is something needs to be done to even shit out, and Anet says they're doing that.

So I trust 'em, they've not completely screwed me over by this point so that's good enough for me. All's left is to play games and wait for updates.

Thanas · Jul 28, 2005, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Meh, this is a good enough response for me. At least good enough so that I won't argue with every bit of it, we're past that by this point. The only point I disagree on is that excessive farming isn't bad in itself, what's bad is what some people do with the money they make from excessive farming. Not everyone, and not the excessive farming in itself, what makes it bad is when inconsiderate people use the money in ways that inflate prices all to hell (like buying out all of one color dye at the trader) or something like that, it's always what people do with the money they get that's bad, not the making of the money period. I know what you meant though, but right now it's the same with droknar runners and such. Hell 3k per person, full party from beacon's to droknars that's 15k in 15 minutes, you do that a few times each day you'll be rich as hell in no time, I know several runners who've become filthy stinkin' rich from running people to droknar's forge, that's just as bad as excessive farming in your sense, except this is more limited to class which means and even smaller portion of the player base can even run people to droknars, making the gap between the rich and the poor even bigger, at least with farming more people have a chance to make money. Point is something needs to be done to even shit out, and Anet says they're doing that.

So I trust 'em, they've not completely screwed me over by this point so that's good enough for me. All's left is to play games and wait for updates.

I trust them too. It'll just take time. Thats all. With regards to excessive farming. I agree that the big problem is what people do with their money. Its unfortunate that most who farm excessively are not considerate. I'm not saying your not. There are a large group of people out there who don't think. It is these people which have ruined it for honest people like yourself.

PieXags · Jul 28, 2005, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Well I personally don't farm excessively, I just farm if I'm in need of money for a salvage kit or something, I bought my sets of 15k armor a while back by selling all my crafting materials I'd saved, a little bit of farming, and some help from guild members. I've no reason to farm now other than that I enjoy doing it, if even for a small bit of money, (also when I need to buy a dye, or an identification kit or something).

I spoke in defense of excessive farming for those who might enjoy (or need) to go through something like that, because I know they're out there. Hell a lot of what I say is speaking for others. For the past few weeks I've been treading at about 90g total on my account, farming what I could to buy a dye or two if I wanted it. I'm not that concerned about farming a lot, to be honest. I just, know that some people...are...and stuff. You get the idea.

BrynMaw · Jul 28, 2005, 12:06 PM // 12:06

/signed
3 hours in UW for sweet FA
Fingers crossed

medikamen · Jul 28, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

/signed

i'm sick of getting **** drops, baught the game when it came out and dearly regret not farming back then... everything used to be smooth, i got decent drops with just regular playing. These days i probably get a gold item every two weeks and when i identify it it's always a **** weapon i have no use for and has **** upgrades, OR some **** superior rune i don't care for and that i can sell 100 gold to the rune trader. WHERE DID ALL THE FUN GO IN THIS GAME? *sigh*

Thanas · Jul 28, 2005, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Well I personally don't farm excessively, I just farm if I'm in need of money for a salvage kit or something, I bought my sets of 15k armor a while back by selling all my crafting materials I'd saved, a little bit of farming, and some help from guild members. I've no reason to farm now other than that I enjoy doing it, if even for a small bit of money, (also when I need to buy a dye, or an identification kit or something).

I spoke in defense of excessive farming for those who might enjoy (or need) to go through something like that, because I know they're out there. Hell a lot of what I say is speaking for others. For the past few weeks I've been treading at about 90g total on my account, farming what I could to buy a dye or two if I wanted it. I'm not that concerned about farming a lot, to be honest. I just, know that some people...are...and stuff. You get the idea.

LOL!! I'm coming from the other end of the spectrum. I was concerned about those casual gamers out there.

. Also, I pretty much do the same with regards to materials. Saves a whole lot of money having them and the excess can be sold.

Night Raven · Jul 28, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

/signed

Iceciro · Jul 28, 2005, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I game casually, and I get crap drops now too, thanks to the uber nerfs.

Ashika · Jul 28, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

/signed 150!/142! times.

I've read this thread from front to back and I'm amazed at the amount of ignorance all bundled into one thread!

First off, I agree with Thanas that gold is not that difficult to make. I finished the game for the first time two weekends ago and I had 120 plat (45k from a sup vigor sale) with absolutely no farming. I am now at 200k and I "farm" for fun/items. I'm not out to make gold per se, but I expect to receive it. I don't farm for items so I can run off and sell them for as much as possible (read next para).

My goal from farming is to find myself a "really sweet item." I love it when golds drop and when I ID I get something really cool. I want to find that 5:1 or 20% enchant upgrade on my own. I don't want to buy these (nor will I). I've found several golds/purples that I've no need for. Since the merchant offers bugger all, I head to Ascalon and dump them for 500g-1k. Example? Ok, 16AL Gold Skeleton Shield w/ -2 received damage. Sold for 500g. Sold 2 max dmg hammers (zealous and 3:1 vampiric) and a +4 armor upgrade all for 1.5k. The player I sold to was simple stunned. But hey, I'm making 5-10x more than what the merchant will give and I don't need those items taking up valuable storage space. So 20min to dump items, 5-7 more plat in my account and I'm back farming for staff upgrades and focii. Don't get me wrong, when I find a hot item, I'm going to try to sell it for a large sum...but if it's worth 100k, I certainly don't mind taking 75k...especially if it means I can sell it twice as fast. I hate trying to sell items; materials I will haggle for, because I do enjoy that part of trading.

Do I believe everyone is like me? Hell no. I actually believe I'm the minority here. Here is what I do, strongly, believe; the vast majority of players do not farm often. Of those that farm, only a minority farm with the end goal of maxing the gold limit in storage and 4 accounts. Most have goals such as gaining materials for that 15k armor (good luck to you!!) or for a better item. Do you, the anti-farmer, truly believe that all farmers are out there 24/7 trying to max their gold limit by the end of the week? Alright, rhetorical question. I know you don't really believe that.

The problem is that you do seem to believe farming is a huge problem and causes unnecessary inflation. You are simply wrong (tho you likely were right w/o any nerfing action whatsoever). The above quote from Thanas, that if you stop farming and supply will increase, is about as wrong as you can be. Farming increases supply. Take that away and supply decreases. Demand, of course, remains unaffected. Who understands supply and demand? Have you guessed what I'm going to say next? Yes, that's right, prices increase! But wait, you say. If farming has been nerfed so badly, won't everyone have less gold?! So demand would then decrease? Well yes! BUT, farming is NOT the only source of gold. As I said, I had 120 plat when I finished the game. HoH winners and PvPers make a steady income. And then there are botters and eBayers. The latter is the true plague (Note to Thanas: This is what Anet wants to get rid of. Even "excessive farmers" are not so bad. If you read carefully, you'll note that they specifically target Bots). And how about those Drok runners...So you see, nerf farming and prices will (and have: 18k for ecto at trader last night) increase.

Ahh so I am acting all high and mighty am I? So you expect me to come up with a great solution, right? Well, truth is, there is no easy solution. Time, effort, and money must be spent to eliminate/hamper bots. Human farmers will always exist (props to the guy who stated farming has been around since the 80's and is a common theme in every rpg), whether they do it to excess or not. Do not waste too much time/effort/money trying to counter the inevitable.

Of course, I do offer some points that should be addressed. Right now, the economy is a "shambles" (as someone put it). I place the blame solely in the hands of Anet. Where they have exercised brilliance in creating the game-play and whatnot of GW, they have exercised extreme stupidity and ignorance in managing the economy. I do not have any inside information, but my feeling is that they looked at other games and tried copy certain parts. Gold sinks, buy/sell traders...you can find them anywhere but GW has truly failed to implement these correctly. It is necessary to have gold sinks, but they will not work if no one uses them! The 15k armor sink doesn't work if you cannot gather enough ecto (I'd like to see the armor cost 50k and the ecto cut back btw). Traders and merchants are useless. No one will sell that black dye for 10g. Because Anet failed to implement proper gold sinks/merchants, players trade for everything. This does not reduce the amount of gold. This is the problem and will continue to be a major problem. Material traders must offer reasonable prices. 40-75% of selling price should do the trick. Steel sells for about 400g and P2P traders sell for 200g. Parchment was 215, P2P = 80-100g. Prices must be set so that one cannot make a profit buying mats from NPCs, crafting and selling the rare mats. This happened at one point with linen...tho you would only make 40g or so. For gold sinks to work, players must be willing and able to use them. If players cannot gather enough ecto because Anet has nerfed the drops, then players will not buy as much 15k armor. If material traders will not offer any reasonable price, then players will sell to others. Also, I would like to see merchants offer reasonable prices for items but that may be asking too much. As it stands, I ask for very, very little.

If Anet focuses on the real problems, you will find that excessive farmers and your average farmer will have little effect on the overall economy. Prices will be higher than they would without farming, but one must realize that farming will happen and that the true value of items includes the inflation due to farming.

Unfortunately, I have more to say! Previously, I discussed farming from an economic point of view. Now let us exam the effect on game play.

Guild Wars is a skill based game. This means that your power is determined by what skills you have and how effective you wield same. Items play a roll, as they should, but do not have a significant impact; certainly not to the same extent as skills. That said, items are the most important part in the PvE game. Once you finish all missions and quests, all that remains is the search for the cool items. The greatest challenge that the game offers is the search to find the perfect staff for your caster. Whereas you can spend 50 hours and pass the game, you can spend 500 hours and still be without that staff. Those who have finished the game must be offered something in order to keep them hooked. And keep the hooked you must, as expansion packs are your only source of revenue from these players! It has been repeated more often than the monk UW build that players have left because there is no fun farming without rewards.

From a personal point of view, this is exactly true. I don't care much for PvP yet. I still want to explore the PvE world and, yes, kill stuff! I won't do this if I continue to find gold bags and base items. Possibly my greatest complaint is the hard-to-get-to chest that has 128 coins. WOW! Cool!...F.off.

I pity those who must try to find a balanced between too many rewards and too few. This thread goes a long way to point out that Anet has gone too far and there are too few rewards. It may be that they never find an equilibrium, but, like the real world, this is expected. It is the swing of the pendulum - too much and too little. But this uncertainty, this inconsistency, this is what makes things interesting. A perfectly balanced game with no need for change soon becomes boring. As long as we are assured that one day soon the drops will increase, then we can all relax knowing that there is still a reason to keep that Guild Wars shortcut on our desktop.

Ashika Devanante

Tactical-Dillusions · Jul 28, 2005, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Well, i've just spent four days trying to get a decent drop on griffons.

Suddenly, (four days ago) the drops turned to crap. I used to pick up gold drops on every run and unlock things at a reasonable pace.
I rotated the areas as normal and never changed my strategy so i have no clue as to the reason for the change except for the download that myself and a friend received in prophets path.
It was feebly dismissed as "an old file" but how can that be when the zone was visited dozens of times since the last update "that they told us about".

I was at the peak of my enjoyment in this game...selling my stuff to the merchant, salvaging bow upgrades for my ranger, keeping the best bows for myself and saving the only novelty item that ArenaNet could be bothered to create...dye.

What are the drops like now?

Most runs only give white items with the odd crappy blue with naff stats.

Some give a purple and maybe a couple of blues too.

Dye has almost stopped completely. I've had an orange dye today...i almost crapped myself from the shock of it.

Any gold drops? Yes. I've had occasional non max gold hammers and non max gold bows with "while hexed" or some other rubbish.

How often do the gold items drop? For me...around one every couple of hours while rotating areas.
I am totally bored with this game now...there is nothing left to do.

PUG's/missions suck, quests are completed, drops suck, trading is rediculous, friends are always being deleted for lack of activity...what is left?

No replayability now...gone, like a fart in the wind and it's carried the fun away with it.

Not sure how long i'm sticking around for...a matter of days maybe less.

UN-NERF THE ZONES and stop destroying players FUN for the sake of a PRETEND economy.

FUN is what will decide the fate of Guild Wars...not the price of items within.
If you can't find a way to stop the Ebay selling...that's you're own disability...don't ruin a viable and fun aspect of the game while crawling further up the backsides of different groups of players.
Here you go PvP player...have a toffee.

Rant over.

twicky_kid · Jul 29, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

/signed

if they don't increase the drops 2 things are going to happen.

1. casual players are going to quit. we don't pay for this game so no real reason to stay around if it takes a year to get some descent gear.

2. dupes will start to run wild. yes the game is server side and it will be very difficult to dupe but if you don't increase the drops it gives people more of an incentive to find ways to do it. i really don't want to see this game turn into another D2 were the drops for rare items is 100,000,000 to 1 of it dropping.

i still get decent money even with the nerfs but i'm seeing the anti farmer program catching my spots. they already nerfed the UW like a mad man. about 2 to 7 ratio there for drops solo. that's just insane for killing a lvl 29. its not our faults you made the spells so overpowered we can solo places like that.

lowering drops doesn't stop the bots and never will they will just keep going. they may find less items but that makes them worth even more on ebay which balances everything out.

if you really want to stop the bots do this. you can only enter gvg battles with customized weapons. the price of items will go up due to that but less items will be bought then no one is going to want to pay much much more for a weapon that might do 1-2 more dmg then have to custom it and effectively lose the money the spent forever.

do that and the bots will lose their effectivness

hidden_agenda · Jul 29, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

The reason ectos are so pricey is because famers were willing to buy them at these prices and before Anet went anti farming, were able to. Before the clamp down on farming, farmers had money. Now they struggle! Farmers set the prices. Since no-one is buying them now, not even the farmers, Ecto should come down in price.

This really shows a poor understanding of basic economics. Some facts:

1. Ecto prices have not dropped, in fact, they have gone up. I've been tracking ecto prices and 2 weeks ago, it was ~8-9k, recently it's gone as high as 18k.

2. Nerfing has not decreased in the past 2 weeks

3. In a live economy one cannot maintain a fixed price indefinitely without the demand to support it. (if that were the case, then all the prices for real estate will be that of the first guy who ever sold a house -- since everyone waits until they could either buy at that price or sell at that price)

I personally have no interest in ecto / shards except as far as a speculative commodity.

Now, for all those people who took econ 101:
1. prices decrease when supply exceeds demand
2. prices increase when demand exceeds supply

This applies to SPECIFIC commodity in question.

What Thanas has mistakenly thought is that farming for gold enters into the above equation. It does not -- not to nearly the same degree that a supply of ecto will affect the ecto price.

Think of it this way, if the Feds raise the interest rate, money is now more expensive, so would people buy less gas and cause gas prices to drop? Well, there are many other places money is going, so it might affect the prices of gas, but only a tiny bit.

In contrast, if OPEC cuts crude productions or several refineries stopped production, it has an immediate and direct impact on the gas price --> it goes up.

Now look at what Anet did --> they nerfed farming
1. price of ecto might dip slightly due to there been less gold to buy it
2. price of ecto will greatly increase since the supply of it has dropped

clearly #2 has outweighed #1, so the prices shot up.

now you can apply this to other similar items in the GW world, and you will see that it's true.

The price of Sup Vigor Rune dropped when its availability is increased in the game.
The prices of good gold items (near perfect axe, staff, sword) shot up with the nerfing of farming, since the supplies of these has dropped dramatically. A good sword used to run 25-40k, now it could cost 80k.

Mavrik · Jul 29, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Well imagine my surprise when today at Droknar, 10 pieces of cloth were SELLING for 110g I had 90 pieces of cloth = 9bolts of cloth. I could have made 1k off that but was holding onto my cloth cause I need it for armor. But imagine my surprise. Cloth at best is between 40-80g for a bolt of cloth.

Black dye as well, the market makes it go up and down so much... most I got for that was 5k for one.

Wrynn · Jul 29, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

/signed!!!

MORE GOLD SINKS, LESS NERFING

i agree with this, and wholeheartedly support this theory

let me dye both "parts" of my armor dammit!

Sagius Truthbarron · Jul 29, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Why do people need black dye, 15k armor and the like? I've only seen two people before wearing black (On their 15k armor from the Citadel), and it looked stupid.

It seems obvious to me that all you would see with a higher drop rate would be "Selling Godly Sundering Stormbow of Sundering 150k"
"WTS GOLD FURIOUS RIGHTEOUS MUAL OF FORTITUDE: 100k"
"WTS UNIDED Runes of Superior Strength (Have 7) 40k each!"